"From the outside looking in, Jung's orientation appeared too mystical and religious, since he used these sources collective symbolism. This may have touched upon an atheist taboo." posted by pioneer in the comments section

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/51419-freud-liar-and-fraud/

I went off looking for Freud's refusal to travel out of town because one of his wealthy patents might get well in his absence quote and found this interesting page.

here is another example:

"Satanists, for example, teach that happiness comes from liberation of repressed desires - sexually repressed desires particularly. I assume they were doing so long, long, before Fraud graced us with his "thesis". 'Ophiolite posted this comment

Oh and the affair with his sister in law was mentioned as well. 

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Comment by klemens swib on February 26, 2015 at 8:26am

JD I know of what you speak. The symbol transforms you regardless, Sometimes it takes many years to comprehend the impact of such powerful dreams and experiences...

Comment by J.D.Stephen Flynn on February 26, 2015 at 7:41am
I recall Hillman's comment of standing on the street corner seeing the Archetypes walk past in the form of dress and no doubt pursuit of purpose. It is both astonishing and humbling to witness ancient human patterns of behavior in modern day dress. And also to ask the question...which Archetype field of force I find myself within.
Years ago an Archrtype visitation came to me in dream/vision form! Fortunately I did not find myself thereafter a table thumping evangelist! But...I am not the same as was nevertheless! A bit like the burden of knowing..

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Comment by klemens swib on February 25, 2015 at 6:57am

Alek you are well read. I don't know Terrence Deacon. I imagine the complexity of consciousness far exceeds our ability to comprehend it. Complexity and the interaction of all these complex in the universe is a miracle as many before us have suggested.


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Comment by klemens swib on February 25, 2015 at 6:51am

JD  we have come up against the unknown in relation to the Unconscious once again. I very much like your  archetypal[?] field of force lining up the religious much like iron filings are lined up by a magnet. Otherwise the complexity of the greek religious impulse would be a difficult amount of data for each inidividual to handle given there was no church or organized religion to hold everything together. Well they had Homer and their other poets accounts to carry some of the explicatory load. Perhaps the Self and the collective nature of the human species allowed the individual to accommodate his individual attachment to the Greek religion. It is surprising what can turn up when one focuses ones attention. I suspect your archetypal[?] field of force magnetic filing organizational principle is a unique and original insight into a question of how the Greeks could carry their complex religious impetus as individuals without the assistance of a church or clergy. I am sure it was you who introduced the Quakers as a modern day example of such a phenomenon to boot.  Cool

Comment by J.D.Stephen Flynn on February 24, 2015 at 5:55pm
I am reminded of the influence of the Archyetypes upon us humans and conclude in part, that the Greeks, as were the Egyptians, aware of patterns of behaviour we ALL fall into...these patterns form personalities or mythical humans (with superpowers we call Archetypes ect,) under which we all succumb,thus for eg, all gamble houses are in effect Fortuners Temples. Theatre/TV viewers etc are followers of Dionysis...(the most popular of the gods). So your comment: 'Maybe the religious impulse embedded in the archetype is what allows individuals to experience a common set of beliefs whilst retaining their individuality?????'...
Taking on board the above and running with it for a while..it is absolutely inevitable that every human comes under or rather walks along a field of force emanating from an Archetype. Similar to magnetic filings paced on paper respond to a magnet underneath. Ok, there are overlapping fields of force emanating from different Archetypes and even from apparent opposite Archetypes eg Aries and Aphrodite..thus Harmony the child of the two is formed as She absorbs him.
So, it would be beneficial to discover through obsevation of social behaviour, what pattern an individual is likely to follow and prediction of a few outcomes is well established and stamped out hundreds of years ago...for instance: the follower of Aphrodite involve eloping..if the father of the bride does not agree with the relationship. The result is disaster. The need for the bride to transfere her projections from father to husband requires father to willingly give her away to enable the smoth passage. However, there are degrees of disaster no doubt. each field of Archetype involves Well established stories recorded in plays/books/film of human psychological behaviour, albeit, choices prevail in terms of positive and negate outcomes within each force field. We humans cannot escape these force fields of behaviour patterns, if such a premis is followed through to conclusion.
The above STILL does not deny individuality that I envisage, as each person has their own path to follow or walk. To become aware that the latter is also possible and allows for personal growth. Such awareness can be intellectual, intuitive, feeling and or sensation according to your inferior type as such insight comes via the inferior function..to the great annoyance of intelligentia.

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Comment by klemens swib on February 23, 2015 at 7:34pm

JD we crossed similar terrain in a previous discussion. I had raised the fact that the Greeks had neither church or a clerical class. Their religion was still viablly durable and widespread amongst the populace. You insightfully mentioned the quakers approach to religion as being of similar character. These two systems allow for a common belief based upon the worshipers own unique individual attachment to that  belief. I suspect this might be akin to your latest reflection.  I don't know if our thoughts completely coincide but we are on the same wave length in my estimation. An Interesting line of thought indeed. Maybe the religious impulse embedded in the archetype is what allows individuals to experience a common set of beliefs whilst retaining their individuality?????


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Comment by klemens swib on February 23, 2015 at 7:12pm

Alek Jung thought in terms myth/the gods as being a psychic projections. His respect for the unknown/unconscious led him to create loser definitions of the archetypes then the rationalists might want and expect. There is a bigger picture than the spoon bender or Freud's  interest in the paranormal. Though Jung was interested in the paranormal as well if I recollect correctly.

Comment by J.D.Stephen Flynn on February 23, 2015 at 6:14pm
It's late and so just a quick but for me a comment which holds tremendous meaning and personal implication both for me and every individual and it is this:
Religion derives from within to the without, therefore ALL commentary/belief systems/dogma etc, are mere expression of personal (and sometimes objective) personal experience. Yes such a statement states the obvious, but consider the implications: each person is their own priest/priestess....to pursue the notion to its enth demands a certain spiritual anarchy, a total reliance on self! And an assumption of personal origin.
And at the same time a humble acknowledgment to rely upon ones own inner ability/leading or expression of what one is. To put it another way, an enactment lead by a profound obligation to express ones individual talent. All achieved absent from interference or critique from another. That to me is true religion.
However such a journey is different for each as we are all unique and no one can know enough about themselves let alone guide others. There! I have said it!

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Comment by klemens swib on February 23, 2015 at 7:43am

I know the consequences of the uncertainty principle and the advance of physics towards the subjective realm were duly noted by Jung. However the study of the internal aspect of nature belongs in the domain of psychology, while study of physics is primarily focused on external aspect of nature aka what the material universe. That matter and energy interpenetrate and that the unconscious and temporal worlds interpenetrate and appear to be two sides of the one reality can only bring us so so far. Psychology defined as the science of the internal aspect of human nature is still in an embryonic mode... 


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Comment by klemens swib on February 23, 2015 at 5:46am

JD you also introduced some significant new issues into the mix. Megal anthropic especially was a term I never encountered before. I looked it up and watched a short You Tube video on the idea, though megal was not a big part of it. Megal may be in the Oxford dictionary but it is not in the one apple provisioned me with. Anyways In my admittedly biased balderized and superficial interpretation of their ideas these folks are entertaining thoughts in regards to the search for evidence of God/God's reflection in the concretized temporal universe. I am totally responsible for that whizz banger of a simplistic summation, so take it with grain of salt. So they are looking for evidence of God in the temporal universe. They are looking for evidence of God from within the concretized mind set that has had its connection with the psyche/soul.unconscious/internal aspect of nature. That connection was severed through western christendoms 1500 years of effort plus to impose the gospel of christ over the inferior barbaric paganistic cultures/mindsets. Paganism/barbarism  had even gone as far as subsuming Christianity in Italy/Rome itself. Even though Christ says the Kingdom of Heaven is within you these anthropic philosophers focus there research and thought , may I presume to assume in the material universe aka the temporal world. Well from a Jungian perspective they are looking for God and drawing their conclusions about God in the wrong place. Jung maintained the source of our religious beliefs emanates from within the psyche itself. These Gods archetypes are projections from within our own psychic nature. The anthropic crowd doesn't recognize the Unconcious as their connection with it has been severed. They are considering the problems about Gods reflection from a totally one sided perspective that does not even understand or cares to recognize where the human concept of god emanates from... to the miss=anthropics i say the kingdom of heaven is within you 

M.R James is a scholar I never heard of before. I will google him and see what turns up. He sounds iinteresting. Thanks for introducing some entirely new issues into the mix.

"I myself have been studying the Apocrapher of the New Testiment by M.R.James...to discover some assumptions we still hold about the Faith we have inherited and upon which much of our values/judgements still prevail". - JD Stephen Flynn


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