The Ecological Crisis & the Image of Frankenstein—REPLAY of "Dinner & Depth" Interview with Robert Romanyshyn

Join Robert Romanyshyn, Ph.D, in conversation with Bonnie Bright, as they discuss the ecological implications hinted at through Frankenstein's monster, and how our culture must shift to survive.

Originally aired July 15, 2015
(approx 37 mins)


>>>GET MORE DETAILS  & the LINK to Listen

SPECIAL EVENT

Get details/Register for Robert's upcoming 10-Webinar Series:

The Frankenstein Prophecies:
Jungian-Archetypal Reflections on Ecological Crises and the God Wars

hosted by Jung Platform. Depth Pyschology Alliance members get 10% OFF. Use code "DEPTH" at checkout, or if that doesn't work, use the "earlybird" discount even though the deadline has technically passed.

 

ABOUT ROBERT

Robert Romanyshyn Ph.D. is an Affiliate Member of the Inter-Regional Society of Jungian Analysts and an emeritus professor of psychology in the Clinical and Depth Psychotherapy Programs at Pacifica Graduate Institute. He has authored six books, including his most recent Leaning toward the Poet: Eavesdropping on the Poetry of Everyday Life, has contributed chapters to numerous edited volumes and has published essays and reviews in many professional journals. In addition to lectures and workshops presented in the U.S., he has lectured in Europe, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and parts of Africa.

Visit Robert's web site here

>>>GET MORE DETAILS  & the LINK to Listen

Comment

You need to be a member of Depth Psychology Alliance to add comments!

Join Depth Psychology Alliance

Comment by Holly Esch on September 22, 2015 at 1:41pm
If not, then maybe Prometheus' gift of fire is like those ugly sweaters your aunt always gives you for Christmas, something to be hung in the bsck of the closet and forgotten.
Comment by Holly Esch on September 22, 2015 at 1:39pm
I'm going to go off topic again for a second:

Is acting, dancing, or singing, where you're performing under a director or choreographer or producer's authority, a creative art?

Playwriting I can see. Directing I can see. Choreography I can see. Songwriting and producing I can see. But as a performer are you being creative or are you like clay in a sculptor's hands, something to be shaped to fit the larger composition?

If giving a performance *is* creative, then could it be argued that all those well off people passively consuming art to impress their friends are really giving a performance on a stage? That cultivating social capital is a creative act and that people with a need to be seen are living breathing art forms?
Comment by Holly Esch on September 22, 2015 at 9:02am
And I recommend "American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J.Robert Oppenheimer" by Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin highly. I couldn't put that book down.
Comment by Holly Esch on September 22, 2015 at 8:44am
"When for instance Mats Winther claims in his essays that he posts here that romanticism in literature, paintings, and you name it is a neurotic response to "rationalism", you bet thet he is right. "

No he's not.
Comment by Holly Esch on September 22, 2015 at 8:36am
"Whoever the Prometheus he or Mary Shelly was referring to it was not the Promethean Archetype we inherited from the Greeks. Prometheus' intentions inclined him to be a benefactor of mankind"

Prometheus defies the gods and brings fire to Man.

Frankenstein defies God and brings the ability to create life from death to mankind.

Oppenheimer brought literal fire to mankind in the form of an atomic bomb.

If Prometheus stands for "the ascent of humanity from primitive beginnings to the present level of civilization," then to me these guys nailed it. They raised the bar.

And that makes them gods.

Organization
Comment by klemens swib on September 22, 2015 at 1:05am

alex

you hit the nail on the head in regard to the dog chasing the tail analogy. I am trying to get off this merry go round. You wouldn't want to live in a society where the mother complex reigns supreme. It certainly wouldn't be modern and it wouldn't be a civilization as civilization was born when the independent masculine personality aka the patriarchal man imposed a spiritual kingdom within the material realm of existence. Romanticism as embodied by the feeling type form of expression is OK. I much prefer feeling types to thinking types. But the puer aeternus poncing through his maternal garden of eden seeking maternal adulation is a bit much. I see mats added a section on this kind of lollygagging to his Hillman essay...


Organization
Comment by klemens swib on September 22, 2015 at 12:51am

holly

Prometheus was a god/archetype/instinct emanating from within the Pre-Olympian realm. A Titan who sided with and helped make possible victory of Zeus in his battle against the Titans. One who knew the name of the Goddess Zeus would mate with to sire the God who would replace Zeus. He was placed on a wooden cross like christ and tortured until he would reveal the name ...and i can go on and on bringing forward the full phenomenology of this archetype...cause he stole fire for man. 

and you keep wanting to throw mary shelley's Frankenstein the new Prometheus monstrosity into this most beautiful phenomenological picture. I gave my explanation of the shadow function/representative in the Greek mythological construct. I also tried to explain why you were wrongly projecting shadow content on the archetypes actions that were initiated in response to those who opposed their instinctual imperative. Yet you persist in substituting a human shadow for what is the archetypal imperative...i.e.

Many things we do out of love have consequences, good and bad, that we never intended

Prometheus is an archetype/instinct/god. As is the shadow Ares. The animosity between Ares and most of the other Olympians is palapable. You are imputing a shadow to a God/archetype prometheus .... Whereas the shadow is an archetype/instinct/god that operates as an independent entity within the archetypal sphere... Despised but tolerated because pure unadulterated egotism is sometimes necessary to ensure the survival of the individual and species...


Organization
Comment by klemens swib on September 22, 2015 at 12:20am

holly

all i can do is repeat my original reply

comment by klemens swib on August 9, 2015 at 2:20pm Delete Comment

Mary Shelley entitled her book Frankenstein,or The Modern Prometheus. Prometheus presumably being the model upon which she based the Frankenstein character.  She then made him responsible for a monstrous creation. Romanshyn argues that Frankenstein is really the monster. That he suffered the same Titanic hubris as Prometheus. Well hold your horses a minute. Whoever the Prometheus he or Mary Shelly was referring to it was not the Promethean Archetype we inherited from the Greeks. Prometheus' intentions inclined him to be a benefactor of mankind. "Karl-Martin Dietz states in Aeschylus' oeuvre, Prometheus stands for the "Ascent of humanity from primitive beginnings to the present level of civilization

fiction writers can write whatever they want....but they should not presume to be channeling anything akin to the Prometheus the Greek phenomenologists worked painstakingly to empiracally observe describe and integrate into the matrix of the dynamic evolving Greek picture of the internal aspect of nature. 

Comment by Holly Esch on September 21, 2015 at 11:28pm
"Is the fire Prometheus presented to mankind just the ordinary wood burning fire or did it also embody a creative component of the human condition. The forge the bellows the fire which Prometheus and his Olympain successor Hephaisto/Vulcan used has very little to do with roasting marsh mellows but with building wondrous armor/shields and machines to harness and entrap/contain opponents. "

I doubt Shelly would disagree with you on that.

"As wine is an attribute of Dionysos fire is an attribute of the Promethian archetype. Prometheus is considered to be the prototypical rebel. One who did his best to side with mankind;even against the Gods."

Many things we do out of love have consequences, good and bad, that we never intended, and just because you start a revolution doesn't mean you get to control where it goes. And yes, you can use your creative fire to create wondrous machines. Like bombs (Oppenheimer). Or "monsters" (Shelly's). Or... mash ups! Like Elmer Fudd singing "Kill The Wabbit" to Wagner (there's a Frankenstein's
monster if there ever was one). A creative fire that compels one to break a taboo, to cross a line, no matter what the collateral damage.
Comment by Holly Esch on September 21, 2015 at 3:29pm
"Jung maintained myths are projected from the human psyche."

Since myths *are* projections from the human psyche is it wrong to discuss how Frankenstein or Oppenheimer may invoke the specter of Prometheus?

You could debate the merits, of course, but is it such a sacrilege to suggest a comparison at all?

Organization
Comment by klemens swib on September 17, 2015 at 1:32pm
alex
Jung maintained myths are projected from the human psyche. The Greeks took an extraordinary interest in recording these psychic projections. Moreover they organized and created a systematic body of myths and placed them in a unified and evolving matrix. In so doing they created a dynamic map of the psyche. The spiritual superstructure of our great Greek cultural legacy. The spiritual foundation out of which the Greek genius emerged…. The hillmanite poetic subjectivists are using the spiritual superstructure of our Greek cultural legacy as a pissing post on which they spray their subjectivist fantasies. How ignorant can you get. This is a depth psychology web site. Has anyone realized that Hillman is a classic demonstration of the Oedipos complex. Self admitted maternal complex. Self admitted Puer Aeterus. Murdered the Father-Jung and married the Jungians. Thereafter placed his poetic subjectivism in its place of the archetype et al. See Mats Winther essay on Hillman. An essay among other critical studies of Hillman that the Hillmanites  pretend does not exist. For them the self indulgent edenite/maternal dream is an ecstatic lullaby that fills pocketbooks much like a modern day cargo cult. Well I definitely won't be going to beat drums with brother john today.
If fire in its full symbolic significance is an attribute of the archetype, then it is part of our human endowment and we have to deal with it. Holly for one and perhaps you want to attach a shadow to Prometheus and by definition all other archetypes. But there is only one shadow in the Greek pantheon and that is Ares. The dark side of the other archetypes is invoked when the archetype is opposed through willfulness or ignorance….   The Greek concept of evil should be taken into consideration in this regard. For even Ares is not the demonic christian devil.
They did not believe in an independent existence of evil. They compared it to darkness, which does not exist in itself but only as the absence of light.
"So, too, evil is simply the absence of good. Things are good insofar as they exist; they are evil only insofar as they are imperfect, lacking some good which they should have."
Alex self destruction of nations comes about because of the absence of light...out of ignorance and unconsciousness. We are untamed primitive beings whose lack of self mastery and discipline has enabled the materialistic imperative to rule over us...and yes civilization has armed beasts with a destructive capability but even they are aware of the benefits mankind has elicited from his effort to tame raw material nature.

Organization
Comment by klemens swib on September 15, 2015 at 2:33pm

Holly

I just watched a video wherein Isaac Newton believed the Greek myths embodied secret representations of alchemical formulas. How would your tin ear react to that. About the 28 minute mark. He then goes on and equates the Roman Olympian equivalent of Prometheus Vulcan with FIRE. 29 minute mark. As a student of depth psychology and Jung you must be aware of the importance  of the concept and breadth of the symbol. Is the fire Prometheus presented to mankind just the ordinary wood burning fire or did it also embody a creative component of the human condition. The forge the bellows the fire which Prometheus and his Olympain successor Hephaisto/Vulcan used has very little to do with roasting marsh mellows but with building wondrous armor/shields and machines to harness and entrap/contain opponents. Maybe if you took the time to look at the phenomenology you might discover that creative component of fire. As wine is an attribute of Dionysos fire is an attribute of the Promethian archetype. Prometheus is considered to be the prototypical rebel. One who did his best to side with mankind;even against the Gods... Archetype of human existence as Kerenyi maintains or the archetype of individuality itself. Isn't it possible Prometheus is bound to help mankind because he is intimately connected to what the neoplatonics refer to as our individuation from the self...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdmhPfGo3fE

Here is a cut and dried example of the intensity and power of the Greek mythographers/phenomenologists/empiricists commitment to describing the nature of the Apollonian archetype. Mary Shelly and her synchophants be damned...

http://www.theoi.com/Cult/ApollonTitles.html

Comment by Holly Esch on September 13, 2015 at 3:26pm
Don't eat from the sacred tree of knowledge -- sometimes you need to transgress to progress. :)

Organization
Comment by klemens swib on September 11, 2015 at 4:55am

holly

I am off on a short road trip. I will definitely be thinking of elmer fudd and killing wabbits as i drive down the highway. Maybe while I am away you can figure out how you turned the desecration of the music of mozart and tchaikovsky by turning it into jingles as a comparison to the desecration of the our Greek mythical heritage by the likes of shelly et al into a sideshow about john williams oppenheimer and elmer fudd... all the best but i have to drive...

Comment by Holly Esch on September 11, 2015 at 12:12am

...and an even better musical example: Elmer Fudd's "Kill The Wabbit" is Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries." 

Comment by Holly Esch on September 11, 2015 at 12:09am

HOWEVER, let's assume for a minute that the myth is sacred. Wouldn't that embody the Prometheus myth in and of itself? Something stolen from the realm of the gods and placed in the hands of Man?

Comment by Holly Esch on September 10, 2015 at 2:06pm
I'm still not understanding how comparing Frankenstein and Oppenheimer to Prometheus is a distortion or a sacrilege.

John Williams a red herring? Okay, Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 and Budweiser. Thirsty party goers crawling across a hot desert stumble upon an beautiful oasis filled with gorgeous women and ice cold beer. Cue "Ode To Joy." Ridiculous? Absolutely! And that’s exactly what makes is an awesome, Super Bowl-worthy commercial. I'm certain Beethoven would drink to that,because it's yet another example of human genius.

Organization
Comment by klemens swib on September 10, 2015 at 9:05am

aleks

It is OK to be different. I just suspect Hillman's [self admitted] mother complex inspired his self admitted [puer aeternal] pouncing through an infantile dimension of poetic subjectivity as he searched out [maternal] adulation. The archetypes were a threat to him because they brought him into contact with realm of the fathers and so he attempted to destroy them...turn them into whimsy and the stuff with which one pursues ones poetic fantasy... In doing so he obliterated a good part of the essential Jung. 


Organization
Comment by klemens swib on September 10, 2015 at 8:52am

holly

The Greek mythological system constituted the spiritual super structure of the greatest outpouring of human genius ever to appear in the Occidental world. It evolved spontaneously out of the Greek psyche. The Greeks had neither church nor clergy. The religion resided in the hearts and minds of the people. It evolved out of the same. This is sacred text which is chock full of a deep and extensive understanding of our archetypal underpinnings. For the most part our civilization hasn't even began to comprehend that the Greeks developed a dynamic and evolutionary map of the internal aspect of our own nature. So interpose with john williams red herring. Well he was a musician huh? He actually wrote music. Taking and distorting the Prometheus myth and the Orpheus mythologem for that matter is not only sacrilege but a demonstration of ignorance. The Greek myths are the sacred text that deserve respect reverence and serious attention. 


Organization
Comment by klemens swib on September 9, 2015 at 11:57am

Randy

Kerenyi's 'The 'Gods of the Greeks' and 'The Heroes of the Greeks' contain the essential phenomenology of the mythology of the Greek Gods and the Greek Heroes. He includes a reference to sources index in those books as well. They are full of detail and some might find them boring, but somewhere and somehow the Gods book reached into my Unconscious and brought about an almost imperceptible reaction that altered my destiny.


A hub for "all things Depth Psychology," with over 5000 members, Depth Psychology Alliance is FREE to join. Simply sign UP or sign IN to comment or post.

Click the logos for more information!

——————————————————————

FEATURED REPLAYS

of ALLIANCE EVENTS 

———————————————————————

——————————————————————

Subscribe to the "Latest Activity" RSS 

feed for Depth Psychology Alliance

CURRENT MOON

© 2020   Created by James Newell.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service